tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-549940298295825812.post4050786660402881729..comments2024-03-27T01:53:40.812-06:00Comments on Classic RPG Realms: Classic Dungeons & Dragons and The Curse of the Over Designed GameSizzaxehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13715649618278080709noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-549940298295825812.post-74211068554731961692012-05-06T18:17:51.049-06:002012-05-06T18:17:51.049-06:00In other words we were playing a version of origin...<i>In other words we were playing a version of original D&D with bits of AD&D added in.</i><br /><br />Me too, which is why my player's and I are happy to play LL + AEC and freely mix and match it with the old 1e stuff.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-549940298295825812.post-79433506310652361752012-05-06T18:07:56.853-06:002012-05-06T18:07:56.853-06:00Yeah, I have to agree with David. The nice thing a...Yeah, I have to agree with David. The nice thing about the 0e pre-Holmes, was it had tons of kewl stuff that had come out for it. <br /><br />1e wasn't really an attempt to "clean up 0e. Basic did that. But lots of the options were reserved for 1e. In the end that became sort of a problem. <br /><br />The magic that was original dungeons and dragons was more accurately preserved in Basic and later Expert. Mentzer kind of took it in a different direction, but original D&D was powerful. 1e was more, well, controlled.<br /><br />That being said I played almost strictly AD&D for over 20 years. My link to Mythmere's comment about houseruling really nailed it that after you got past the idea that you had to play with all the crap (read extra rules) in 1e it's actually a very open and forgiving system. Which is the way me and my friends actually played it. In other words we were playing a version of original D&D with bits of AD&D added in.Sizzaxehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13715649618278080709noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-549940298295825812.post-3979382068062118662012-05-05T00:25:56.981-06:002012-05-05T00:25:56.981-06:00No offence Anonymous, but that's crap. It'...No offence Anonymous, but that's crap. It's all too easy to form that opinion after a casual glance at the original rules, especially after being used to properly edited RPGs. <br /><br />As someone who has gone to the trouble of copying the entire text of all three booklets and then reformatting it into a single volume of a style similar to Labyrinth Lord, I can say with some authority that the original game is most definitely NOT full of holes, nor would I call it rules-lite. <br /><br />It's a shame Gygax and crew didn't bother to take the time to do what I did, they might've been able to prevent 38 years of misunderstand and confusion.<br /><br />Ironically, as someone who spent almost 30 years as a 1e devotee, I have to say a properly edited version of the 3LBB looks like a neat and polished RPG in comparison to the wonderful but labyrinthine chaos that is 1e.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-549940298295825812.post-43328277526997819442012-05-04T23:39:56.859-06:002012-05-04T23:39:56.859-06:000e was a mess, horrible editing, no production qua...0e was a mess, horrible editing, no production quality to anything...it may have just as well been a little brown book that read, "do anything". But for something trying to a real game, from table to table, group to group, tourney to tourney, it was complete chaos and a game that meant nothing. There were also a million of laughably large gaps and holes in the game. 'Twas was like a chess game with a random number and type of pieces, but the play at another table nothing from the one before had any fungible values or premises, so now piece type 1 doesn't not exist at all, piece type 2 moves in a completely different way...just anarchy at all levels. That is not the way to build a sustainable game that will last, it's it's way to sell boxes of nothing headed to a one hit wonder and a mere "curiosity".<br /><br />I think 1e was an attempt to put the mass confusion to rest, but leave plenty of room for innovation. Its a solid framework, not a non-existent vapor lattice.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-549940298295825812.post-79322249966464336222012-05-03T02:04:41.290-06:002012-05-03T02:04:41.290-06:00I can understand about the cost but IMO the books ...I can understand about the cost but IMO the books are worth it. I've bought them 6 or 7 months apart and saved up in between. I don't buy a lot of RPG books any more but when I do, I make sure that I buy ones that I know I'm going to be using for a long time which is the case for the PHB and the HoB. I know I'm going to probably get 9 or 10 years of play out of them so it's a good investment. <br /><br />Google+ Hangouts is pretty good because you get to actually see and interact with the other players. <br /><br />Depending on where you live though we might be able to find a nearby HM group, email me or drop by the K&Co forums.Greylondhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09896610456503648984noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-549940298295825812.post-2277474040980429912012-05-02T23:01:19.326-06:002012-05-02T23:01:19.326-06:00Hey Greylond--i've been meaning to email you. ...Hey Greylond--i've been meaning to email you. I'm talking about Hackmaster Basic. I haven't managed to convince myself to spring for the AHM books yet. Don't get me wrong, I love Hackmaster. I just can't quite bring myself to commit to it. Partly for the reasons I mention and partly for reasons I'm not even sure about. To be honest I'm haivng trouble digging up $140.00 for the Hacklopedia and PHB. I have Frandor's Keep too, and some 3e Kalamar stuff, and of course my KODT collection, and some downloaded Hackjournals.<br /><br />I've tried to get several people to start a HMb game with me, but noone seems willing to. That would give me a better idea, and at least I could speak from an informed point of view. <br /><br />That's partly what I wanted to email you about, and also about how your online games work. I'm not real thrilled with online play, but it may be the only chance I ever get to actually try the game out. To tell you the truth i don't feel very qualified to GM it. I might have tried HM4, since it was so much like AD&D, but HMb seems like a much different animal.<br /><br />I would love to confer with you more about it though. <br /><br />Thanks for continuing to stop by. And btw I am enjoying your learn to hack frandors keep blog--good stuff :)Sizzaxehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13715649618278080709noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-549940298295825812.post-75727484068264197942012-05-02T22:48:26.612-06:002012-05-02T22:48:26.612-06:00In a word Callin--imagination. I get to create it....In a word Callin--imagination. I get to create it. Now, I'll admit there is certainly something to be said for having things ready made for you. In a world where many of us are too busy to even find the time to game, having those options presented to us on a platter is a nice convenience. I'm not even saying it's wrong to do so, or to want that. To each his own. I love reading RPG splatbooks, modules, worldbooks etc. almost as much as I love reading fantasy. I like seeing what someone else has taken the time to create. But in the end what I really love is creating things myself--I suppose that's one of the reasons I write, DM and draw. Don't know how good I am at them all, but I sure enjoy doing it. Same reason I love music and still play it.<br /><br />And I must say I agree with David too, who seemed to get the gist of my rather longwinded post. If the commercial game designers start feeding us all these options as a part of the official ruleset, then people start coming to expect them--whether you want them or not. And when you start adding all the options into a game from the start it can limit creative freedom. Lastly, we are always in danger of falling into the pit that Gary alluded to in his quote. <br /><br />And again, I should mention that the kind of game Gary is describing is fine if that's what you are looking for. Some people really have fun with it. I just don't happen to be one of those people, and evidently Gary wasn't either.Sizzaxehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13715649618278080709noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-549940298295825812.post-70946816607633760732012-05-02T18:23:27.577-06:002012-05-02T18:23:27.577-06:00What version of HackMaster are you talking about h...What version of HackMaster are you talking about here? Because the new HM is pretty modular, I've seen people drop certain parts of it and play it just fine. Just want to make sure because some people played or looked at HM4 and automatically assume that the new(current) version is the same.Greylondhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09896610456503648984noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-549940298295825812.post-35675075067534901632012-05-02T18:08:05.165-06:002012-05-02T18:08:05.165-06:00what's the difference between you creating the...<i>what's the difference between you creating the rules for a psionic monk or another publisher doing it (other than you retain control)?</i><br /><br />I reckon I can answer that. As soon as something appears in an "official" rulebook, players see it as an entitlement rather than an option the DM can choose for his campaign. Whereas when the DM and players cooperate to introduce a new element, that sense of entitlement isn't there.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-549940298295825812.post-45514875549930083642012-05-02T17:57:58.904-06:002012-05-02T17:57:58.904-06:00It sounds like we've had a similar journey. I ...It sounds like we've had a similar journey. I started with Holmes, quickly moved to 1e, dabbled with Basic but preferred 1e. I never used all the rules and stayed passionate about the game for a couple of decades. <br /><br />These days my 1e ardour has cooled and having spent a lot of time looking at the original game, I now realise that is the game I've basically played all along. Ironically I think they got it right first time, it's just a pity that they didn't have a mate who was a decent editor when they were putting the game together in a garage.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-549940298295825812.post-82691682138411590822012-05-02T17:56:36.361-06:002012-05-02T17:56:36.361-06:00So now I have to ask, what's the difference be...So now I have to ask, what's the difference between you creating the rules for a psionic monk or another publisher doing it (other than you retain control)?<br /><br />To me, it is essentially the same. I as a DM can pick and choose what options I want to include. Heck, I can decide I don't want clerics in my game even though they are "core". Personally I like the fact someone else will do the "grunt" work of providing my game with options (such as monks or psionics) and all I have to do is pick and choose which of them I like and don't like.<br /><br />Maybe because I've been playing this game so long, I do not cater to the players-It is my world and my rules. My players can ask for stuff but it is always ultimately up to me. No matter how many splatbooks and rules are released.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10588183535221978936noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-549940298295825812.post-44346437738462970362012-05-02T17:06:40.888-06:002012-05-02T17:06:40.888-06:00Oh, no that's not snide at all Callin, and i&#...Oh, no that's not snide at all Callin, and i'd be glad to respond. <br /><br />The point behind early D&D is that literally everything was possible. Monks--absolutely, psionics--absolutely, dragonmen--absolutely, six shooters? flying ships? ray guns? Cthuloid monsters? Pooping Gold? Absolutely to each and everyone.<br /><br />What changed with later option-rich games is that they wrote all those options IN the game. The became a sort of inseparable part of the game. And in a very real way the more the game became defined, the less it could be in our imaginations.<br /><br />In short it was our job to come up with psionic monks and flying centaur men. <br /><br />You'll notice that Arneson's Blackmoor was famous for containing nuclear tanks, crashed spaceships and the like. Arduin's Grimoire which was verymuch int eh spirit of D&D contained insect men races, and magical technology.<br /><br />The 3 LBBs used the titles Fighting Man and Magic User, I think, with the idea in mind that these were general archetypes that could bve expressed in lots of different ways. Your fighting man may use his fists, and mine uses a falchion. The ethos here is "you define the particulars. Don't make us do it for you. That takes all the fun out of it."<br /><br />The idea is creative feedom not delineation. At least not on a wholesale basis. Does a GM need to delineate how psionic monks work in his world? Sure he does, and it will lead to house rules. But the way he chose for it to work did not have to agree with the way I chose for it to work. Later games limited this.<br /><br />There is a really good article on the evolution of house ruling at Mythmeres blog here: <br /><br />http://swordsandwizardry.blogspot.com/2012/01/functional-taxonomy-of-old-school-d.html<br /><br />That may help explain kind of what I'm talking about. <br /><br />So to sum up, yes. Let's talk about your psionic monk and see what we come up with.<br /><br />Now some people don't like this. They like being able to take their PC from one friend's campaign and drop him in another. They liek knowing that their psionic monk is the same--or darn near--to every other psionic monk in AD&D anywhere. <br /><br />Well, there's something to be said for that. Gary himself claimed AD&D was to accomplish that very thing--we all know where that went. And I claim that there's also something to be said for letting each person express their own unique or collective vision born of the fires of their own imagination. <br /><br />I geuss the question is how do you want to game? In the end, either way is entirely valid.Sizzaxehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13715649618278080709noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-549940298295825812.post-45344609699004436812012-05-02T14:37:29.158-06:002012-05-02T14:37:29.158-06:00This is going to come afcross snide but its really...This is going to come afcross snide but its really not. <br /><br />What if I want to play a psionic monk? Do I have to go to a completely different system? Can I not play such a character in your game?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10588183535221978936noreply@blogger.com